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Regulatory reform needed to red flag arrested officers

Softly Softly (19/01/23 @ 11:37)

Whilst agreeing with Chief Constable D'Orsi in part, she fails to appreciate what many of us retired officers know that for the past two decades the recruiting system has eroded and is flawed, reduced just to the ability to tick the right 'political and social engineering' boxes. Training is woeful, as is mentoring, the latter in the form of tutor constables now virtually extinct, as who has sufficient experience to do it anyway - all of these factors have led to warning signs not being picked up and positively actioned. The has been made worse by the loss of age and service related experience as cost cutting exercises, especially in the supervisory ranks, Sergeant and Inspectors in particular as they had hands on oversight of officers on their relief. Todays officers, through constant 'tinkering with the system' are younger and it shows in many ways, not their fault but is a consequence of a gross lack of foresight and I have to say the NPCC ranks share a high level of blame for all of these factors, they have, either through lack of will, or experience, sometimes both, got into bed with politicians to the detriment of policing UK. I also feel that this sudden kneejerk clamour to go overboard with constant / regular vetting was and is never applied to GP's following Harold Shipman, nor politicians after their many transgressions (too many to list) of a deviant nature, nor to the legal or the nursing / caring professions. If people are to be vetted then everyone dealing with the vulnerable SHOULD be subject to the same level of scrutiny as the police not to do so is unfairly disproportionate.

Anonanon (19/01/23 @ 11:59)

Well said.

Mike Hunt (19/01/23 @ 12:29)

I doubt very much that she does find herself awake and mulling these things over. Maybe awake and thankful that Carrick was not associated with her current force in any way. Whilst instances like the cases of Couzens and Carrick are shocking, they are indeed rare. But what is not rare is the almost daily press releases from Police senior management about one of their officers being in trouble for telling rude jokes on social media. And with it, the constant hand wringing about how those officers had let themselves down and that they were hopeful of dismissing them. Open and transparent misconduct processes is one thing but the way they are publicised does more to erode public confidence than the acts of that particular officer. I have seen countless times how police authorities have over reacted about something rather minor, made a press release before actually confirming the exact circs, and then once they have realised that the highlighted officer didn't do too much wrong, nonetheless disciplines him for bringing the force into disrepute etc. Going by what D'Orsi is lamenting over, serving police will be required to have their faces tattooed with their collar number....just so everyone knows they are police.

Thewayitwas (19/01/23 @ 13:13)

She is right albeit jumping on the band wagon and closing the barn door after the horse has bolted. However because the CC is correct let’s see it done , it’s not that hard to cross reference forces databases. Some will say it’s hard but with a decent small team on it with authority and funding it can be done. At the same time it could be used for repeat false allegations too. For example I know of a female who made false allegations against her then husband ( a now retired officer) regarding child abuse to stop him having access. She moved around the country dealing with different social services departments who didn’t speak to each other and every time he was prevented from seeing his children for months at a time . Finally it was found that all the allegations were false. My point being on the second or third time a quick check would have shown a red flag so after the police data bases are linked why don’t they sort local Councils …I don’t think either will happen but I hope things do change.

paul webb (19/01/23 @ 13:15)

Spot on.

Anon (19/01/23 @ 13:34)

What "Bunkum" from CC Freeman. Do Doctors, Teachers, Social Workers, I could go on not hold absolute unique positions in society? They all have extensive powers which are obvious and rely upon complete trust. If CC Freeman cannot understand the parallels then that is a real concern. They may not have a power of arrest,however I would consider the ability to conduct medical procedures, inject drugs, be responsible for the lives of children as equally critical powers analogous with police powers.

Softly Softly (19/01/23 @ 13:45)

Ironically having viewed the BTP Federations Facebook page, it is noted that a Force Review is currently in it's 'consultation' stage with a view to perhaps reducing the number of Inspectors in the Force, (the low level already subject of critical comment at the Manchester Arena Inquiry) this surely this weakens even further the safeguard of supervisory oversight of potential problematic officers - maybe strengthening rather than weakening might be more appropriate and much more in accord with CC D'Orsi's viewpoint?

Old Skool Kind of Guy (19/01/23 @ 13:47)

Agree that CC Freeman is trying to say the right thing and ending saying the opposite...

Softly Softly (19/01/23 @ 13:56)

Dr Harold Shipman is estimated to have had 250 victims but was convicted of murdering 15 - when I visit my GPO surgery I doubt very much they undergo much, if any real initial or ongoing vetting. Much is down to trust, sadly a few is ANY walk of life will abuse such trust - but tarring everyone as untrustworthty is absurd!

Softly Softly (19/01/23 @ 13:58)

@Softly Softly correction GP surgery, not GPO (General Post Office as was donkey's years ago LOL)

Justthejob (19/01/23 @ 14:45)

Whilst Clearly Carrick is a wrong one in every sense of the word we cannot lose sight of the fact you are innocent until proven guilty. What this actually shows is that basic policing is not being completed such as physical address checks which would confirm the persons identity and also confirm if they are in a position of trust. We need to take a deep breath before doing anything, take the media Criticism and then look properly at what went wrong. The first point of call would be his unit what failed there, if anything? Where is the leadership, not management but LEADERSHIP, we have lost the basic command structure within policing and that urgently needs to change. The vast majority of officers are good. Vetting is a risk assessment tool, as is enhanced and non enhanced DBS checks but how many doctors and nurses face serious charges. If we are not careful and you over regulate all a criminal needs to do is make an allegation to ruin careers. It’s time for leaders not mangers, it’s time for discipline to return to work place. Standards, standards and standards. Let’s not forget it was cops that arrested and prosecuted Him not the IOPC not the HM Constabulary and for the House of Commons let’s look at the allegations made against MP’s compared to 120k cops.

paul webb (19/01/23 @ 16:42)

Senior officers rushing to the press to declare that yet another officer has been found guilty at court or at the tribunal is a self defeating exercise. Not saying for a second that officers who have broken the law or discipline regs. should not be punished. Far from it. But do the idiots at the top think that this washing our dirty linen in public does the police any favours at all. People already think the police are a bunch of racist sexist corrupt murderers and rapists and by keep showing them your bad apples this view just becomes the perceived truth. Other professions eg the doctors and lawyers do not seem to be so forthcoming. Whether it is because they are better at keeping their black sheep hidden or they cover up all but the very worst offenders I honestly do not know but they are hardly ever in the MSM headlights like the police seem to be on a daily basis.

Softly Softly (19/01/23 @ 16:59)

I agree, what NPCC ranks can't see is that they are part, a big part, of the problem because the way they have managed, as opposed to led on their way up the greasy pole, has been instrumental in the dismantling of proven systems and safeguards and sadly in its wake effective policing in general. Time for a Royal Commission so that the UK gets the policing system it needs and deserves, once the envy of the world, but alas - no longer!

paul webb (19/01/23 @ 17:12)

@Softly Softly Been arguing for yonks that a Royal Commission on the entire justice needs to be done

Captainover (20/01/23 @ 09:45)

I really agree with what Ms D'Orsi is saying here. It is unbelievably ridiculous that a police officer is not flagged as being a member of the police service on PNC. A simple solution would be to add a flag like the 'WEAPONS' 'DRUGS' flag onto the PNC for all police officers when they start work. That said the number of officers who don't do address checks in person before bailing people is staggering. If these checks were done it would likely reveal a lot of issues.

Guest (20/01/23 @ 17:21)

A marker indicating a subject is a police officer will never be shown on PNC or any other indices readily available to regular staff. Officers deployed undercover and / or on sensitive enquiries such as OCG's or terrorism would have their identities exposed and put at risk by corrupt or corruptable police or civilian operators. I've even heard that some staff have actually misused the PNC....

Captainover (21/01/23 @ 12:17)

Fair point I never really considered that.

Bob (21/01/23 @ 14:38)

I know it's a bit off topic, but don't senior officers have access to irons. I would have been ashamed to come to work in a shirt that looked like I had slept in it, never mind be photographed in it.

The Job was good (23/01/23 @ 20:17)

The average police Constable has a digital footprint out of 10 of 8 ( 1 being minimal) therefore you place a VPN enabled terminal in custody blocks and for all suspects entering custody ( not identified as ) police officers can easily be indentified in seconds in social media - Carrick liked selfies .

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