May and Herbert are fully determined to kill off the Police, and Police Staff morale as quickly as they can. I for one wish I had never voted for these Morons, I thought at the time nobody could be worse than Blair and Brown, how wrong I was. UKIP next time.

The Tories only support the police when they need them e.g. Maggie vs the miners. Our pay rocketed just before that episode. Now they feel safe we can go to h*ll. Unless of course their stately pile gets burgled then it's a different story. UKIP for me too.

It is very easy to define front line. Does your role require you to wear body armour? If the response is no then you are not front line.

Right, let's get it straight. Police Officers versus Police Staff - yet another management style attack on the service. These politicians and chief officers have grasped the obvious benefits of a 'Divide and Conquer' principle quicker than Machiavelli could ever have done. I was a regular officer for over 2 decades in 3 different 'Forces'. I was also a special and, briefly a Fed. Rep. I would like to go on record. We are all part of the same team. The greatest jockey in the world would never win if the horse, trainer, owner and stable staff didn't do their jobs. As good as we coppers are, we could not be effective without those who support and augment us. If the thin blue line is the chain, the police staff are the anchor and I applaud them. Don't reinvent the wheel and don't try to fix what isn't broke, May, Winsor and Herbert.

@scott Quite a simplistic view? I think the viewpoint of retired officers who serve on front desks and who go out and take statements, do arrest warrants, etc. might be slightly different do you not think?

@Maverick22 Me, too. With bells on.

@Dave Well said Dave!

@scott Try telling a soldier that he doesn't need weapons research and manufacture, the supply of ammunition and food, medical assistance and people building bridges etc. etc. etc. Same argument different circumstances. It's a bit like that long running debate on sexual or racial equality. All men and women are equal, thankfully, they're not all the same. The only person who appears to be confusing equal with the same is you, Scott.

@scott - Having worked in a Contact Bureau and now a Divisional Comms room for the last 3 years I find myself on the polar opposite of what you have niavely declared. Just because in that role myself and my colleagues don't don a stab vest (I do however, in my SC role) does NOT mean that we're not on the front line. I am unable to count the inhuman screams that have greeted me upon answering that 999 call. Unable to do anything but stay on the line whilst a woman screams for help with the accompanying sounds of fists hitting her in ugly sounds of impact and the woman trying to report how she has just been raped when walking home. How about when I am juggling 117 checks, emergency jobs stacking up with no officers to get out to them and all the other accompanying jobs that many (certainly not all) have a clue that we do. You try and tell me that our jobs are not as vital and often as horrifying as a PC's and I'll show you an ignorant fool.

I reckon Scott is the glove puppet herbert in disguise.......it is the sort of over simplistic, meaningless drivel he would come up with !!

@scott What defined front line before body armour then ? Because if you have a good hard look all it is is a shield.A good one I will admit. It gives you confidence to tackle situations which you should may be standing back and having a second look. All your amour,gas, extending batons and tasers does not make you a better police person it merely gives you a sense of security that might just get you killed. You have maybe unwittingly have stirred up a real hornets nest. Step back think again about your comments and come back on this forum.If you are man or woman enough to see you may have been a little bit quick to ctitisize then I think most will give you credit If however you go along the Gung Ho route of your initial comments then I would urge you to take of your shields of confidence away and face the public with nothing but your common sense,wit and ability to converse. If you are unable to do this then the police have lost and the government won. Because you have become nothing more than a foot soldier,a dispensable foot soldier for this ever increasing communist regime.

@scott VERY TRUE! i am a pcso

I never said that other roles were not equally important towards front line roles. I mearly stated that a front line role at this time can be identified if your role requires you to wear body armour. If not then it is not a front line role. Many of the roles that people have mentioned above are very important in supporting front line and I'm guessing that most of the people who are upset by my comments are not currently in a front line role at this time. The fact that someone can think that a person who makes a gun is as front line as a solider is blinkered.

@scott We may be getting there. But we have not yet accepted that an officer,let's say CID, who does their day to day job in the main without a stab vest is in fact front line An officer and in fact a member of police staff who mans the front desk (can I say mans ? persons seems a bit silly ) is front line. It seems to me,correct me if I'm wrong, that because it seems you are a response officer doing the dirty work.I'll never argue that point,you think that you are the one and only who faces danger. I was a police motorcyclist for 18yrs,was measured up but never issued with a stab vest.I and many of my colleagues were in the thick of it at football matches etc. Are you saying this is not front line ? Divide and conquer is ACPO's way forward.Don't become part of it.You are part of a unique band of people who rely on each other no matter what your role.Do not alienate yourself.Even the cleaning staff who take out your trash and clean your toilets are your allies if you embrace them. No I am not hugging a tree at this moment.Step back take a look. I am retired now thanks to A19,well actually thank God so it is easy for me to say but your gun comment doesn't cut it. Tell you what invite me out I''ll come no amour.I'll sign the disclaimer.Don't ever forget your mouth is the best weapon you have.

I did what i would class as front line for 16 years and now work in custody. I'm told my role is front line but i believe my role is more of a support to front line roles. I sit behind a big desk wearing a shirt and tie and have never felt the need to wear body armour in my role. Yes i help our with violent prisoners and wear most of my PPE but on the whole the hard physical risk by the officers has already taken place. Every role within the policing family has its part to play but i do feel it is important to place a difference between front line and front line support. Not sure what its like in other forces but in mine you CID and other non-uniform deparments soon send out an arrest request to unifirmed front line when the prisoner has warning markers. I'm the first one to ask why they are helping Winsor 2 and that some officers do not use there warranted powers.

Please excuse my spelling mistakes

Ihave to agree with what Scott is saying uniformed response, SNT, ARV, RPU, Dog handlers they are front line officers end of. everyone one else has a role that is vital to the running of the police service at all levels and without those other roles the job simply would not work. it strikes me as strange how for years CID for example wanted to distance themselves form those who wear a uniform thinking they were some how superior, now there is talk of extra help and support for front line everyone wants to be classed as front line, it is divide and conquer and it not difficult to achieve as so many in the job are so insecure. At the end of the day what ever the role sworn officer or civilian staff we all depend on each other ans everyone should recongise that fact but should also accept there are difference in what we do and all strive to be the same as we clearly are not

@scott Kind of - there are roles that could be equipped with body armour but forces wont pay out for it!!! Custody staff get involved with violent detainees on a daily basis yet dont have armour but could argue that they are front line just as custody sergeants do!

@scott Kind of - there are roles that could be equipped with body armour but forces wont pay out for it!!! Custody staff get involved with violent detainees on a daily basis yet dont have armour but could argue that they are front line just as custody sergeants do!

@scott Ah ha now I see your train of thought.I for what it's worth agree with your line of thinking on the Winsor 2 thing

@Anonymous I did point out I felt my role as a custody Sgt wasn't front line but more of a support to front line officers. You have answered your own point as if your role was enough of a risk they would buy you body armour.

@ Scott - You are incorrect in your definition of 'front line'. Correct definition is - The police front line comprises those who are in everyday contact with the public and who directly intervene to keep people safe and enforce the law... By definition a custody sgt is 'front line' as are detectives, response, neighbourhood etc etc... Making up your own definition is dangerous...!

@Anonymous The only people that are making themselves in to what they class as front line are the ones that will be diresctly affected by winsor 2 and the fact that HMG have stated they want to provide extra support to front line officers. I didn't see many civillian crime prevention officers stood around me when I'm on a PSU duty. It is a very simple and easy to understand statement that i have made. Ask a custody sgt and a detective where there body armour is and they will probably have to wipe an inch of dust off it before they could put it on. Mine is sat in my PSU bag for when i'm needed to do a front line duty. This isn't a case for what roles are more important as i regard many front line support roles as important if not more important in some cases but lets not kid ourselves as to what a front line role is.

@ Scott - I'm not interested in entering into an argument with you regarding 'what is and what is not front line'. You clearly have your very simplistic interpretation. However, the definition I have set out is not mine but that which the HMIC set out in March this year. I personally believe it is a fair reflection of what many would consider to be 'front line'. I never suggested for one moment that civilian crime prevention officers are front line. In my opinion your overly simplistic interpretation of 'front line' is unhelpful. I am a detective and have been assaulted and hurt whilst carrying out this role and I'm damn sure I'm not alone. I have also had a knife pulled on me. I wasn't wearing body armour but as you can see I am' in everyday contact with the public and I directly intervene to keep people safe and enforce the law'. I suspect there will be many custody sgts who routinely experience this also. I'm not kidding myself about what is/is not front line but I am clear that just because a police officer happens to wear body armour that they are the only ones privileged to be considered 'front line' according to Scott's criteria.

@Anonymous you Sir are right, as is @Ian,@ Scott you are wrong, simple. @Scott - you seem to indicate that a detective runs for uniform whenever a suspect that they want to arrest has a violence warning marker and I therefore assume that you have never been a detective? If you had been then you would not have said such a naive and frankly offensive comment. All detectives in my home force receive that same PPE as their uniformed colleagues, they are also instructed to take it with them whenever they leave the station. They are expected to conduct what we love to call 'dynamic risk assessments'. As you clearly have not been a detective I shall tell you that what happens is that a proper 'risk assessment' is completed prior to any planned arrest and you take the resources you require in order to ensure the arrest is made with as little risk to the attending officers as possible. You then take what you require to make that arrest; that may or may not include uniformed or PSU trained officers (NB - in many forces not all IRT or uniformed officers are PSU trained, so are the one's who are not, not front line?) @Scott you also elude to there being a divide between detectives and uniform, cretaed by the arrogance of detectives towards their uniformed colleagues. Again sir, you could not be more wrong. The modern detective and uniformed officer complement each other and respect each others roles and expertise. All you are doing is with your overly simplistic view is creating that divide you claim is created by arrogance. Why not apply for the next Tory MP vacancy? You and people like you seem to be doing what Cameron wants - splitting and destroying the Police Service to such a point that we all just fight for our own personal gain and finally completely lose all public support; at which point they will have won and can finally do anything they please to us as no-one will care less. With all your service, surely you can see that the phrase 'front line' has just been created in order to destroy our team?

Let's get this right. Batman wears body armour. Police officers wear "stab proof vests" both police officers and police staff are an intregal part of the working machine. Which rely on each other. Stop drawing comparisons that don't exist

@scott Oh dear. So detetcives working with domestic violence and child abuse is not front line. Dealing with unimaginable tales and instances of abuse that I could never do is not front line? Trying to win trust of victims to get the evidence for prosecution. Some people haven't the brains they were born with. Shameful. If its not regan and carter style policing it doesn't count. Crime has evolved. New crimes, frauds, internet crimes, organised crimes requiring different skill sets. Thats as much front line as anything. Typical of Tories - protect front line - THEN ask for a defination of what it actually is. UKIP have one policy. They have no idea what happens for or against coming out of Europe. Look carefully at what they offer in terms of education, health, sustainability law and order. Most are just Tories or 'ex' Tories in disguise.

@scott I didn't say that a gun manufacturer is front-line.Neither do I think it. Please READ what people say before trying to pick holes in their opinions. Unless of course your choice of Mr Magoo as your photo ID, is based upon your poor eyesight. There is no point in me reiterating what I actually said, above, as you didn't read it the first time. Operate eyes, engage brain before opening mouth.

@Anonymous Well said, Anonymous.

@Stevec123 This comment is just as simple as yours @scott the only difference is that @Stevec123's statement is absolutely correct and yours was up the wall.